Like any circle in any industry, having good professional relationships can be valuable to involved parties. In the world of security, more specifically Vulnerability Databases (VDBs), the relationships we maintain benefit the community behind the scenes. Like ogres and onions, there are layers.
Someone from CVE and someone from OSVDB run an informal list called ‘Vulnerability Information Managers’ (VIM) for discussion of vulnerabilities as relates to post-disclosure issues. New information comes up, additional research, vendor confirmations, vendor disputes and more. It’s a great resource for us to discuss the details that help each VDB fine-tune their information. (No new vulnerabilities are posted there, don’t bother)
In addition, some of the VDBs have stronger relationships that allow for great dialogue and information sharing. A few examples of these, from OSVDB’s perspective:
– A couple of the CVE guys are great for very informal chat about vulnerabilities. Despite being the dreaded “government contractors”, they are respectable, very knowledgeable and have a great sense of humor. I just sent one a mail with the subject “PROVENANCE BITCHEZ?!” challenging him on the details of a given CVE. They are so nice, I broke my rule of not taking candy from strangers and happily accepted the bag of leftover candy from their BlackHat booth. Joking aside, the ability to coordinate and share information is incredible and a testament to their integrity and desire to help the industry.
– OSVDB uses Secunia for one of our feeds to gather information. The two guys we regularly have contact with (CE & TK) lead a bright team that does an incredible amount of work behind the scenes. In case it slipped your attention, Secunia actually validates vulnerabilities before posting them. That means they take the time to install, configure and test a wide range of software based on the word of 3l1t3hax0ry0 that slapped some script tag in software you never heard of, as well as testing enterprise-level software that costs more than OSVDB makes in five years. Behind the scenes, Secunia shares information as they can with others, and there is a good chance you will never see it. If you aren’t subscribed to their service as a business, you should be. For those who asked OSVDB for years to have a ‘vulnerability alerting’ service; you can blame Secunia for us not doing it. They do it a lot better than we could ever hope to.
– The head of R&D at Tenable contributes a lot of time and information to VIM based on his research of disclosed vulnerabilities. Installing the software, configuring, testing and sometimes noticing additional vulnerabilities. He is a frequent contributor to VIM and has worked with OSVDB on sharing information to enhance the Nessus plugins as well as the OSVDB database.
– str0ke, that mysterious guy that somehow manages to run milw0rm in his spare time. What may appear to some as a website with user-posted content, is actually a horrible burden to maintain. Since the site’s inception, str0ke has not just posted the exploits sent in, but he has taken time to sanity check every single one as best he can. What you don’t see on that site are dozens (hundreds?) of exploits a month that were sent in but ended up being incorrect (or as OSVDB would label, “myth/fake”). When str0ke was overwhelmed and decided to give up the project, user demand (read: whining & complaints) lead him to change his mind and keep it going. Make sure you thank him every so often for his work and know this: milw0rm cannot be replaced as easily as you think. Not to the quality that we have seen from str0ke.
Since we have no corporate overlords, I’ll go ahead and talk about the flip side briefly:
– ISS (now IBM) runs a good database. Very thorough, keen to detail on including original source and vendor information. In 2004, the head of that group (AF) left, and until that time, we had a great dialogue and open communication. Since then, even before the IBM frenzy, we’ve mostly gotten the cold shoulder when mailing. Even when pointing out problems or negative changes on their side. LJ, bring back the old days!
– NVD. Why do you waste taxpayer money with that ‘database’? We pay $22 for Booz Allen Hamilton to “analyze” each CVE entry (thanks FOIA request!), yet they find a fraction of the typos and mistakes I do? By fraction, I mean exactly none from what I hear through the grape vine (DHS cronies are cool). If you can’t notice and report simple typos in a CVE, and you botch CVSS2 scores left and right (yes, I’ve mailed in corrections that were acted on), what exactly are you doing with our money? Are you the virtual Blackwater of VDBs?
– SecurityFocus / BID. Sorry, not going to bother with verbal fluffing. My countless mails pointing out errors and issues with your database are seemingly dumped to a black hole. Your promises of certain mail archives ‘not changing’ were pure fantasy. To this date you make erroneous assumptions about affected products, and still don’t grasp “case sensitive”. I know some of your team, you have great people there. Just lift the corporate policy that turns them into virtual shut-ins, please?
Sorry to end it on a downer. I still dream of a niche of the security industry (VDBs) where we can all play well with each other.
Steve Christey w/ CVE recently posted that trying to keep up with Linux Kernel issues was getting to be a burden. Issues that may or may not be security related, even Kernel devs don’t fully know. While this is a good example of the issues VDBs face, it’s really the tip of the iceberg. Until their recent adoption of CVE identifiers, trying to distinguish Oracle vulnerabilities from each other was what you did as a gentle relief from a few hours of being water-boarded. Lately, Mozilla advisories are getting worse as they clump a dozen issues with “evidence of memory corruption” into a single advisory, that gets lumped into a single CVE. Doesn’t matter that they can be exploited separately or that some may not be exploitable at all. Reading the bugzilla entries that cover the issues is headache-inducing as their own devs frequently don’t understand the extent of the issues. Oh, if they make the bugzilla entry public. If the Linux Kernel devs and Mozilla browser wonks cannot figure out the extent of the issue, how are VDBs supposed to?
Being “open source” isn’t some get-out-of-VDB free card. You’re supposed to be better than your closed-source rivals. You’re supposed to care about your customers and be open about security issues. An advisory full of “may” and “evidence of” is nothing more than a FUD-filled excuse to blindly upgrade without understanding the real threat or exposure to the end-user.
Steve’s post is a good view of how some VDBs feel about the issue: http://marc.info/?l=oss-security&m=124061708428439&w=2
Tonight, I followed-up on his thoughts and gave more of my own (original: http://marc.info/?l=oss-security&m=124065500729868&w=2):
A question, really?
I’d like to reiterate what Steve Christey said in the last 24 hours, about the Linux Kernel vulnerabilities becoming a serious drain on CVE. Historically, OSVDB has relied on Secunia and CVE to sort out the Linux Kernel vulnerability messes. Both VDBs have full time staff that can dedicate time to figuring out such nuances as those above.
Not to pick on Eugene specifically, but I feel he makes a great example of my point. Nuances that a “Senior Security Engineer at Red Hat” who specialies in “OS and Application Security, Project Management, Vulnerability Analysis, Code-level Auditing, Penetration Testing, Red Hat Products and Services, Financial Services Technical Account Management” cannot definitely distinguish between difference in Kernel vulnerabilities. If Eugene cannot say with certainty these deserve two CVE numbers, how can Steve or his staff?
VDBs deal with thousands of vulnerabilities a year, ranging from PHP applications to Oracle to Windows services to SCADA software to cellular telephones. We’re expected to have a basic understanding of ‘vulnerabilities’, but this isn’t 1995. Software and vulnerabilities have evolved over the years. They have moved from straight-forward overflows (before buffer vs stack vs heap vs underflow) and one type of XSS to a wide variety of issues that are far from trivial to exploit. For fifteen years, it has been a balancing act for VDBs when including Denial of Service (DOS) vulnerabilities because the details are often sparse and it is not clear if an unprivileged user can reasonably affect availability. Jump to today where the software developers cannot, or will not tell the masses what the real issue is.
This isn’t just a Linux Kernel issue at all. The recent round of advisories from Mozilla contain obscure wording that allude to “memory corruption” implying arbitrary code execution. If you follow the links to the bugzilla reports, the wording becomes a quagmire of terms that not even the developers can keep up on  . That’s if they even open the bugzilla entry reference in the advisory . Again, how are people not intimately familiar with the code base supposed to understand these reports and give a reasonable definition of the vulnerability? How do we translate that mess of coder jargon into a 1 – 10 score for severity?
It is important that VDBs continue to track these issues, and it is great that we have more insight and contact with the development teams of various projects. However, this insight and contact has paved the way for a new set of problems that over-tax an already burdened effort. MITRE receives almost 5 million dollars a year from the U.S. government to fund the C*E effort, including CVE [Based on FOIA information]. If they cannot keep up with these vulnerabilities, how do their “competitors”, especially free / open source ones , have a chance?
Projects like the Linux Kernel are familiar with CVE entries. Many Linux distributions are CVE Numbering Authorities, and can assign a CVE entry to a particular vulnerability. It’s time that you (collectively) properly document and explain vulnerabilities so that VDBs don’t have to do the source code analysis, patch reversals or play 20 questions with the development team. Provide a clear understanding of what the vulnerability is so that we may properly document it, and customers can then judge the severity of issue and act on it accordingly.
I believe this is a case where over-exposure to near-proprietary technical details of a product have become the antithesis of closed-source vague disclosures like those from Microsoft or Oracle [Which are just as difficult to deal with in a totally different way.].
I’m big on Vulnerability Database (VDB) evolution. I tend to harp on them for not adding features, not making the data more accessible and generally doing the exact same thing they did ten years ago. While the target of my ire is typically functionality or usability, today it is about a little more.
Last night I wanted to check for details on a CVE entry that was rather vague and had a single reference to BID. This is fairly common in the VDB world as one database will add an entry and not provide a link to the source of the data (Secunia and BID primarily). As luck would have it, BID was down. Almost twelve hours later and their VDB is still down. What annoys me is that while they aren’t delivering vulnerability information, they sure are delivering advertisements. Why can’t VDBs get the same dedication and resources that ad farms get?
Next, I wanted to find out if the other VDBs created an entry for the latest OpenBSD flap yet, so I went to X-force which is a pretty reliable database. Much to my dismay, it appears that the ‘advanced’ search is now gone. While it wasn’t extremely powerful, it let you do some basic sorting that was immensely helpful in finding what you need. I have mail out to them asking for confirmation that it is indeed gone versus a web geek error. I certainly hope it is the latter…
Update: Over 24 hours later, the BID database is finally available again. ISS has not replied to at least two mails from VDB managers asking about the missing advanced search feature.
CVE just announced reaching 30,000 identifiers which is a pretty scary thing. CVE staff have a good eye for catching vulnerabilities from sources away from the mainstream (e.g. bugtraq) and they have the advantage of being a very widely accepted standard for tracking vulnerabilities. As companies and researchers request CVE numbers for disclosures, they get a lot of the information handed to them on a silver platter. Of course, sometimes that platter is full of mud and confusion as vendors don’t always provide clear details to help CVE accurately track and distinguish between multiple vulnerabilities. I’ve also pointed out many times in the past that CVE is a very unique VDB that provides identifiers for vulnerability tracking. They do not provide many fields associated with other VDBs (solution, creditee, etc). As such, they may have a single entry that covers multiple distinct vulnerabilities if they are the same class (XSS, SQLi, RFI), or if there is a lack of details but they know it affects the same product (Oracle). So when we see 30,000 identifiers, we have to realize that the real count of vulnerabilities is significantly higher.
CVE is run by The MITRE Corporation, sponsored / funded by the NCSD (US-CERT) of DHS under government contract. That means our tax dollars fund this database so it should be of particular interest to U.S. taxpayers in the security industry. I know from past discussions with CVE staff and other industry veterans that on any given day, they are more likely to have more work than available staff. That means the rate of vulnerabilities that get published is greater than the resources CVE can maintain to track them. In short, the 30,000 identifiers you see only represents a percentage of the vulnerabilities actually disclosed. We could probably debate what percentage that represents all day long, and I don’t think that is really the point here other than “we know it isn’t all of them”.
Every VDB suffers from the same thing. “Commercial” VDBs like X-Force, BID and Secunia have a full time staff that maintain their databases, like CVE does. Despite having all of these teams (some of them consisting of 10 or more people) maintain VDBs, we still see countless vulnerabilities that are ‘missed’ by all of them. This is not a slight against them in any way; it is a simple manner of resources available and the amount of information out there. Even with a large team sorting disclosed vulnerabilities, some teams spend time validating the findings before adding them to the database (Secunia), which is an incredible benefit for their customers. There is also a long standing parasitic nature to VDBs, with each of them watching the others as best they can, to help ensure they are tracking all the vulnerabilities they can. For example, OSVDB keeps a close eye on Secunia and CVE specifically, and as time permits we look to X-Force, BID, SecurityTracker and others. Each VDB tends to have some researchers that exclusively disclose vulnerabilities directly to the VDB of their choice. So each one I mention above will get word of vulnerabilities that the rest really have no way of knowing about short of watching each other like this. This VDB inbreeding (I will explain the choice of word some other time) is an accepted practice and I have touched on this in the past (CanSecWest 2005).
Due to the inbreeding and OSVDB’s ability to watch other resources, it occasionally frees up our moderators to go looking for more vulnerability information that wasn’t published in the mainstream. This usually involves grueling crawls through vendor knowledge-bases, mind-numbing changelogs, searching CVS type repositories and more. That leads to the point of this lengthy post. In doing this research, we begin to see how many more vulnerabilities are out there in the software we use, that escapes the VDBs most of the time. Only now, after four years and getting an incredible developer to make many aspects of the OSVDB wish-list a reality, do we finally begin to see all of this. As I have whined about for those four years, VDBs need to evolve and move beyond this purely “mainstream reactionary” model. Meaning, we have to stop watching the half dozen usual spots for new vulnerability information, creating our entries, rinsing and repeating. There is a lot more information out there just waiting to be read and added.
In the past few weeks, largely due to the ability to free up time due to the VDB inbreeding mentioned above, we’ve been able to dig into a few products more thoroughly. These examples are not meant to pick on any product / VDB or imply anything other than what is said above. In fact, this type of research is only possible because the other VDBs are doing a good job tracking the mainstream sources, and because some vendors publish full changelogs and don’t try to hide security related fixes. Kudos to all of them.
Example: Search your favorite VDB for ”inspircd”, a popular multi-platform IRC daemon. Compare the results of BID, Secunia, X-Force, SecurityTracker, and http://osvdb.org/ref/blog/inspircd-cve.png. Compare these results to OSVDB after digging into their changelogs. Do these same searches for “xfce” (10 OSVDB, 5 max elsewhere), “safesquid” (6 OSVDB, 1 max elsewhere), “beehive forum” (27 OSVDB, 8 max elsewhere) and “jetty” (25 OSVDB, 12 max elsewhere). Let me emphasize, I did not specifically hand pick these examples to put down any VDB, these are some of the products we’ve investigated in the last few weeks.
The real point here is that no matter what vulnerability disclosure statistic you read, regardless of which VDB it uses (including OSVDB), consider that the real number of vulnerabilities disclosed is likely much higher than any of us know or have documented. As always, if you see vulnerabilities in a vendor KB or changelog, and can’t find it in your favorite VDB, let them know. We all maintain e-mail addresses for submissions and we all strive to be as complete as possible.
Jason Bergen posted to Full-Disclosure trying to sell a “Security Vulnerability Database Company“. From that mail:
The company maintains a database of all security vulnerabilities, and the database is updated on a daily basis. The company maybe of interest to organisations who are currently licensing a vulnerability database. In addition the company has developed some software applications built upon the vulnerability database.
This is interesting on many levels, especially the approach in selling it. Why post to that mail list and not others? When asked for more details, Mr Bergen tells you “In order to provide further information a signed NDA would be required.” You must sign a non-disclosure agreement just to find out the name of the company being sold. He also makes the following claim:
The database contains all vulnerabilities since 1988. Each entry has Bugtraq, CVE, and Nessus ids. It has developed its own vulnerability alerting system, but recently changed focus to providing OEM database licensing.
Sadly, he is not the first to make this claim. Throughout the years, many people have referred to CVE as having “all vulnerabilities since 1988” which simply is not the case. If you ask Steve Christey or anyone involved with CVE, they will be the first to tell you that isn’t the case. So why do people think that? CERT started releasing advisories in 1988, but only released them for serious/critical vulnerabilities. Between 1988 and 1999 (CVE inception), many vulnerabilities were never added or given a formal advisory for. In short, claims that their database has “all vulnerabilities since 1988” is extremely suspect. Had it been any year other than 1988, perhaps they took the time to go back and add them making the claim true. His wording also begs the question, what if a vulnerability doesn’t have a BID, CVE or Nessus ID to match? As much as databases try to maintain a perfect cross reference mapping, it just doesn’t happen all the time.
From: Steven M. Christey (coley[at]mitre.org)
Date: Fri Jul 15 2005 – 13:35:52 CDT
Vulnerability databases and notification services have to pore through approximately 100 new public vulnerability reports a week. Correction: that’s HUNDREDS of reports, from diverse and often unproven sources, for about 100 unique vulnerabilities per week.
A LARGE number of vendors and maintainers either:
Document Detailing “CVE Content Decisions” Now Available
June 15, 2006 — A new document entitled “CVE Abstraction Content Decisions: Rationale and Application” detailing CVE content decisions (CDs) has been posted on the CVE Web site. CVE CDs are the guidelines used to ensure that CVE names are created in a consistent fashion, independent of who is doing the creation.